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At the seminar I mentioned recently the presenter prefaced anything that might sound critical with, "I know this doesn't apply to you, but..."
So, I know this doesn't apply to you, but... Tony Bramley had this to say about Johanne's last post:
"There have always been crap photographers. Even in the days of film our old lab used to tell us of terrible exposures etc.
"It's just there are more of them with digital cameras who think they can do a professional job in a very amateur way. If they don't know their trade and tools they are not professionals. As a printing company as well as an album supplier, you need to accept that a certain percentage of your customers are going to be poor at what they do and cause you some grief. Unfortunate but a reality.
"Good professional photographers have two schools of thought on this. It puts us, in customer perception, at a higher level with good value at a higher price for excellent work. However it does give the profession a bad name... I suggest charging extra for particularly bad images that require extra work and you could make some extra money!"
When I asked, Johannes didn't disagree with Tony's main point, but said:
"Before they invented pixels (ending the era of the unforgiving nature of film) it was more important to get it right in camera ... The magical art of pixel massage has reduced the need to 'get it right first time'. The expression, 'We can fix it in the computer' has led to lazy photographers. If people were able to incorporate those early capture ethics of exposure, composition and posing first up they would save themselves a lot of pain and time.
"Getting it right in camera may not seem as important to the new generation of the 'forgiven', but in truth it is more important than ever. There will always be crap, I agree. That's a good thing. That is what makes the average look better, and the better than average look exceptional."
Ken Buist
on
March 12, 2009, 3:03 am
said:
After reading Johannes posts about pricing etc its about time to put in my pennies worth (purposely bad pun!). My main question is about our industry and whether it seems to be on self destruct mission (over supply of photographers and reducing margins). The comments about crap photographers being there in film days are correct. The new generation of crap photographers are not the main problem ..... the biggest concern is the increasing number of very good photographers offering good products like Queensberry at stupid pricing. These idiots are the real problem. Example ..... at the recent Designer Wedding Show in London (UK's premier show), one photographer was offering 2 photographers, hi-res images and Queensberry with 60 images for £1500. The logic is that they will go out of business, but they aren't. These people seem so survive but are creating a massive problem. Any thoughts? .... Ken
Reply
Elena
on
March 20, 2009, 11:43 am
said:
Ken, I totally agree with the low pricing problem. I see your point, Robert, and understand that the attract-in pricing can be a good marketing tool, but there are others companies that sell so close to cost, it's hard to imagine they're covering salaries.
Take heart, Ken, in the fact that this is not restricted to the photographic business. I'm a jewelry designer on the side (http://www.elena-adams.com), and every time I see jewelry by other artists that probably took them two hours, and they're charging $20, I want to cry! They under-value their own time, and do not create a sustainable business model. Once they factor in materials, marketing and everything else we do, there's no money to be made on prices like that.
The biggest problem is that it also creates an expectation from clients that these products are only worth $20, damaging the market for everyone. Whether or not these designers and photography companies survive makes no difference; the mess they can create is very hard to undo.
Reply
James Bignell
on
March 20, 2009, 8:52 am
said:
We all have to start somewhere and I feel for those guys starting out in this difficult industry. It is difficult for established Photographers with larger overheads to compete with Photographers new to the industry on price, however at least they have their good reputations to keep them moving forward.
My main worry for the industry as a whole is the amount of Photographers coming into the Profession who don't actually need to make a living out of the work they do. I have Wife,4 kids etc. etc. to support and need to make it work. There are an awful lot out there who already have the main income sorted and to me they are doing this as a kind of hobby/business because it sounds like a nice idea.
Maybe to be called a Professional you should have to prove you are a valid business and turn over a minimum amount each year to have that title against your name. Like accountants who are fully qualified.
It would give people starting out something to aim for and the public a good idea of who is established. It would stop everyone who has a camera and a bit of training calling themselves professional photographers. Good for the Public and good for the industry.
Reply
Robert Lawrence
on
March 17, 2009, 1:28 am
said:
HI Ken, I'm one of the "idiots" (with a mensa certified IQ in the top percentile).
The bit you're not appreciating is that the 60 picture model is an ENTRY level and virtually EVERY album actually contain many more pictures, it's an "attract-in" headline-price marketing strategy.
The rest is "discretional expenditure". It's a strong proposition to limit the brides risk ... if you like more buy images buy them ... if you don't then you haven't thrown your money away. Decide what you want to spend based on the results ....
Exactly the same model that the low-cost airlines apply in a highly competitive marketplace ...
There's no con - all this is explained and highlighted up front. It puts the bride back in control of the budget .... when she can best judge their value, when it's pictures of HER wedding.
With our "idiotic" approach our actual average is well over £3k; sure, a few brides only take the Queensberry and 60 ... (not many and we try and limit them to off-peak by careful pre-sales selection) and they are still profitable ... but a few £6k Duo's in a season easily balances them out.
Every time I put the headline price up the phone and emails stop, the reality is that most photographers think that price-elasticity of demand can be ignored. It can't.
The massive problem is not one of pricing but understanding price-led marketing and the current market. There are very, very few brand-led photographers out there who can charge what they think they are worth.
Regards, Bob
Reply
Robert Lawrence
on
March 17, 2009, 1:28 am
said:
HI Ken, I'm one of the "idiots" (with a mensa certified IQ in the top percentile).
The bit you're not appreciating is that the 60 picture model is an ENTRY level and virtually EVERY album actually contain many more pictures, it's an "attract-in" headline-price marketing strategy.
The rest is "discretional expenditure". It's a strong proposition to limit the brides risk ... if you like more buy images buy them ... if you don't then you haven't thrown your money away. Decide what you want to spend based on the results ....
Exactly the same model that the low-cost airlines apply in a highly competitive marketplace ...
There's no con - all this is explained and highlighted up front. It puts the bride back in control of the budget .... when she can best judge their value, when it's pictures of HER wedding.
With our "idiotic" approach our actual average is well over £3k; sure, a few brides only take the Queensberry and 60 ... (not many and we try and limit them to off-peak by careful pre-sales selection) and they are still profitable ... but a few £6k Duo's in a season easily balances them out.
Every time I put the headline price up the phone and emails stop, the reality is that most photographers think that price-elasticity of demand can be ignored. It can't.
The massive problem is not one of pricing but understanding price-led marketing and the current market. There are very, very few brand-led photographers out there who can charge what they think they are worth.
Regards, Bob
Reply
I love a good story | Queensberry Connects
on
March 9, 2011, 10:57 am
said:
[...] long posts, and I’m always at Ian and Nigel to keep ‘em brief so I apologize. This recent post prompted Ken to comment and me to respond with this, my longest [...]
Reply
James Bignell
on
March 20, 2009, 8:52 am
said:
We all have to start somewhere and I feel for those guys starting out in this difficult industry. It is difficult for established Photographers with larger overheads to compete with Photographers new to the industry on price, however at least they have their good reputations to keep them moving forward.
My main worry for the industry as a whole is the amount of Photographers coming into the Profession who don't actually need to make a living out of the work they do. I have Wife,4 kids etc. etc. to support and need to make it work. There are an awful lot out there who already have the main income sorted and to me they are doing this as a kind of hobby/business because it sounds like a nice idea.
Maybe to be called a Professional you should have to prove you are a valid business and turn over a minimum amount each year to have that title against your name. Like accountants who are fully qualified.
It would give people starting out something to aim for and the public a good idea of who is established. It would stop everyone who has a camera and a bit of training calling themselves professional photographers. Good for the Public and good for the industry.
Reply
Elena
on
March 20, 2009, 11:43 am
said:
Ken, I totally agree with the low pricing problem. I see your point, Robert, and understand that the attract-in pricing can be a good marketing tool, but there are others companies that sell so close to cost, it's hard to imagine they're covering salaries.
Take heart, Ken, in the fact that this is not restricted to the photographic business. I'm a jewelry designer on the side (http://www.elena-adams.com), and every time I see jewelry by other artists that probably took them two hours, and they're charging $20, I want to cry! They under-value their own time, and do not create a sustainable business model. Once they factor in materials, marketing and everything else we do, there's no money to be made on prices like that.
The biggest problem is that it also creates an expectation from clients that these products are only worth $20, damaging the market for everyone. Whether or not these designers and photography companies survive makes no difference; the mess they can create is very hard to undo.
Reply
Ken Buist
on
March 12, 2009, 3:03 am
said:
After reading Johannes posts about pricing etc its about time to put in my pennies worth (purposely bad pun!). My main question is about our industry and whether it seems to be on self destruct mission (over supply of photographers and reducing margins). The comments about crap photographers being there in film days are correct. The new generation of crap photographers are not the main problem ..... the biggest concern is the increasing number of very good photographers offering good products like Queensberry at stupid pricing. These idiots are the real problem. Example ..... at the recent Designer Wedding Show in London (UK's premier show), one photographer was offering 2 photographers, hi-res images and Queensberry with 60 images for £1500. The logic is that they will go out of business, but they aren't. These people seem so survive but are creating a massive problem. Any thoughts? .... Ken
Reply
I love a good story | Queensberry Connects
on
March 16, 2009, 9:03 am
said:
[...] long posts, and I’m always at Ian and Nigel to keep ‘em brief so I apologize. This recent post prompted Ken to comment and me to respond with this, my [...]
Reply